What is the fastest way to loose your all your friends and acquaintances?
Join a Pyramid Scheme like Amway or GoldQuest
You need to be a fool to pay money to enroll into one, and then to recover from your losses, you push 10 more of your friends down the same path. What you don’t realize it that in this quest, you have bugged 100 of your acquaintance and not only pitched the idea unsuccessfully, but irritated them so much that they will never ever again talk to you.
According to wiki:
“A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered.”
Common traits:
* A highly excited sales pitch, the whole time the presenter will try to sell you an idea of becoming an entrepreneur, having others earn for you etc, but he will never bother to tell you what work?
* Little to no information offered about the company unless an investor purchases the products and becomes a participant.
* Vaguely phrased promises of limitless income potential.
* No product, or a product being sold at a price ridiculously in excess of its real market value. As with the company, the product is vaguely described.
* An income stream that chiefly depends on the commissions earned by enrolling new members or the purchase by members of products for their own use rather than sales to customers who are not participants in the scheme.
Pyramid schemes work on a simple principle:
Enroll a fool and rob him by asking him to pay an exorbitantly high membership fee or buy some trinkets. Then make your customer your employee. By paying him a small fraction of the revenues, ask him to rope in his entire friend circle.
If you happen to be trapped in one such presentation, then you will realize that the whole time the presenter will talk irrelevant stuff.
Here is how my meeting went:
1) He will say how a bottle of cold-drink/greeting card which costs 10/- in retail actually costs a few paise to manufacture and rest all the markup is because of the distribution costs.
Well if you do want me to be a salesman, then please do bring your product catalog…. but you will never get a chance to see it. Also you would realize that even though he is a salesman for the same company, his intentions is not to sell you its products… his sole intention is to enroll you as a member.
2) Then he will keep on going about how life of a salaried guy sucks and he does not get due compensation for the business he brings to the company
well sir, I earn a 7 digit salary (INR), so I am not complaining and if you do have a solid business plan, then do explain it to me… but then you will realize that all he wants to do is touch your emotional chords.. he has nothing substantial to explain.
3) He will keep on saying, if you enroll in members, that you will get a commission from the business they bring….
Well sounds exciting, but what is the business? how do you guys make money… all you will get is silence.
4) Then he will draw complicated diagrams explaining how you will earn money etc.
Here you will realize that none of it revolves any logical business. I agree you were a fool to enroll in the first place, but that does not mean that the world has an endless supply of fools to rob from? After all the fool and his money soon part, so my probability of finding one in time is really bleak.
5) Then he will go on and explain how big the company is, how much is its revenue etc.
Good, so the company has already cornered the entire business space… now how will I find room for expanding.
All they are selling is the idea to get rich without putting in efforts. Well there is nothing like a free lunch.
If you know one, then please let me know.
sree
Sandip Chaudhuri
vbr
Skabeesh
ibofightback, I don’t know. I asked quixtar and was told to ask the person who showed me the plan. I guess if quixtar doesn’t know, you can’t expect me to know.
ibofightback, don’t you feel bad earning profits by doing business with brothels? You never answered that question.
Comment by Outsider — April 26, 2008 @ 4:50 AM
You say – “Diamonds falling out, Diamonds quitting. The evidence is on my side” and yet you don’t even know how many new Diamonds there are? Some evidence. There’s been 77 new Diamonds in the last 4 years that I’m aware of.
As for your last pathetic question, I’m part owner of a webhosting business that has thousands of customers. If any of them are illegal businesses, then they would have they’re accounts closed. There are apparently some websites of massage and escort services, and which IMO quite probably provide sexual services as well. They are UK businesses, a place where prosititution is legal. I personally have no problems with legal prostitution.
But if you want to get into the mud, then let’s get into the mud and compare. You’re obviously raising this issue because of well known Quixtar critic JoeCool18. JoeCool18 claimed on his blog he had been threatened with exposure as visiting illegal brothels and attacked me and others and blogged for sympathy. He raised the claims, I responded. What was the result? It was discovered that JoeCool18, a married man, had indeed been visiting illegal brothels in Honolulu. Brothels well known for their exploitation of illegal immigrants. It was discovered, through his own descriptions of his actions, that he treated these women with zero respect. It was also discovered he had a facebook profile full of prositutes as friends.
He raised the issue on his blog and he outright lied about it. He claimed the facebook profile was not his – a lie. He claimed he hadn’t visited the brothels – a lie. He later admitted the facebook profile was his, proving he was a liar. He later admitted visiting the brothels – proving he was a liar. He claimed he hadn’t visited the World Sex Guide, which had a lot of this information, for a long time – also proved to be a lie, he’d been there as earlier as a few weeks before. More recently he has claimed I was “tracking his web activity” using Google Analytics, another lie which is little more than paranoid delusional. Furthermore, he has accused me of outing him, when people have provided me with his name, his wife’s name, his workplace, and home address and have never revealed it. I know many critics real names, and a deal of other information.
If pathetic people like yourself think it’s so damn important to plaster my name all over the net, and photograph, address, and phone number, as has happened, then perhaps you have no problem with me doing it for you and these other quixtar critics? Should I do it for you “outsider”? It’s amazing what can be found on the ‘net.
JoeCool18 has proven himself in his own words and actions to be an abuser of women, unfaithful to his wife, a persistent breaker of the law, and a consistent liar, dishonest to the extreme.
But to answer your question. Yes, one of my companies hosts some massage and escort service websites in locations where prostitution is legal. No I don’t feel bad about it. I have no problems with legal prostitution where there are safeguards in place to protect women earning a living from their work of choice. I do have a problem with illegal prostitution and exploitation of women. I do have a problem with men who sexually abuse women who are in positions of little power. I do have a problem with men who cheat on their wives. I do have a problem with men who persistently break the law. I do have a problem with men who persistently lie, and I do have a problem with people like JoeCool18 who do all of these things and consistently make up stories and lies about themselves, about me, and about the companies and people I associate with.
If you chose to associate yourself with him and people like him, which clearly you do, it says an awful lot about you doesn’t it? That’s assuming you’re not actually joecool18 yourself, which quite frankly wouldn’t surprise me.
Go crawl back into the hole you came out of.
Comment by ibofightback — April 26, 2008 @ 4:27 PM
ibofightback, do you have bonafide proof that Joe-Cool did these things? If so, I am willing to expose him on my blog. I don’t want proof from a court of public opinion. In my own opinion, you are just as bad as Joe Cool. I read about all of your lies and deception, but frankly, it has nothing to do with the fact that quixtar/amway is a great way for people to lose money following a dream.
I am not Joe-Cool, but you seem to be a hypocrite when you profit by doing business with brothels. Isn’t that what Joe-Cool is doing? Don’t be holier than thou. Your a hypocrite. I read Tex’s blog and he said your a big time liar, that’s why he never enjoyed his trip with you. Dave Robison’s blod said you were ok, but you I got the impression that you were an arse.
The reason I have an issue with you is because you promote a scam as if it’s a good opportunity. You could say I agree with Tex. And since you promote a scam, you are a scammer.
I’m glad “whoz” exposed you. I bet your dying to know who outsider is. Joe-Cool is not a secret. I emailed “Steve” and he told me why he is a blogger. Mostly to expose your deception. I find that ironic.
Comment by Outsider — April 27, 2008 @ 1:59 PM
Yes, we have “bonafide proof” – JoeCool’s on words and admissions, as well as screenshots – it was all posted on my website, for registered users only since I generally not into slinging this stuff around publicly – not until jerks like you force it upon me. I have not lied about *anything* and for you to claim I have is either you deliberately lying or you’re just repeating what you’ve been told because you like the sound of it, to hell with the truth. If Tex is your source that kind of says it all really. I had what I thought were civil discussions with Tex in Prague, including one where I personally apologised to him for something I’d written that he’d misinterpreted. I thought he was a reasonably decent guy – it wasn’t till he came back and could hide behind the ‘net that I discovered he’d not accepted the apology and continued to slam me. He didn’t even have the decency to take it up with me in person after I’d apologised.
Regarding “brothels”, if you can’t see the difference between being a part owner of a web company hosting legal legitimate businesses, and a married man regularly going to illegal brothels, making up fraudulent accusations of threats regarding this, posting these false claims of threats on the web, and then when being called out and proved to be lying about the whole thing – and continuing to lie – well, I think you’ve got a serious issue with your ability to make moral judgements.
Now what was it Dave said about me on his site … oh yeah, that’s right … “I found him to be a pretty cool guy”. Which you interpret as getting “the impression I’m an arse”. This says a lot more about you than it does about me.
As for your last bits of rubbish, you accuse me of promoting a scam, yet here are you, falsely claiming that I’ve done/said all these “lies and deception”. Put up or shutup. What have I lied about? What have I deceived about?
Scott Larsens “exposure” did nothing but *enhance* my credibility. It showed that, despite years of accusations from people like JoeCool and you – I’m exactly who and what I’ve been saying I am all along. I’ve been nothing but truthful and honest. For you to hide behind your cute moniker, and sit here on some person’s blog and anonymously throw completely false and baseless accusations against me – cowardly, immoral, unethical, and frankly quite disgusting.
And you have the hide to call me a scammer.
Comment by ibofightback — April 28, 2008 @ 2:08 AM
I didn’t see any admission by JoeCool that he actually engaged in any of the activity that you accused him of. He admitted on his website to visiting the website and said that was it. Is he lying? Maybe, but you posting crap on your own website doesnt prove anything unless you are posting pictures of him actually going into a brothel.
Secondly, I have read some exchanges between you and other posters. You really do have an ego problem. You cannot admit being wrong and will spin, lie and deflect issues to avoid being labeled wrong.
Daves blog said he found you to be “cool”, but he also said you didn’t discuss amway stuff with him. Maybe your amway alter ego makes you become doctor jekyl when you are normally a cool guy? But when I see some of the junk you post, you don’t give me that impression.
And I have read countless testimonies of people who had their lives ruined by the people who push the “system”. Yet you seem to think that is ok and you even promote it. That to me the what’s dirty and wrong with amway, the system and those who promote it, including yourself.
Comment by Outsider — April 28, 2008 @ 8:29 AM
He said the facebook profile wasn’t his, then he admitted it was. He said he hadn’t visited the WSG site, then he admitted he had. He said he hadn’t visited the brothels and just made all the internet posts up, when if you read the posts, which he admits are his words, it’s abundantly clear that too is a lie. His own words condemn him. Ask someone who actually bothered to check if JoeCool was lying. Tex annoys the crap out of me sometimes, but at least he bothered to actually read the evidence instead of continuing to believe someone who had already shown himself to be a liar.
As for an “ego” problem. I’ve got a problem with being told I’m lying when I’m not. I’ve got a problem when being told that *my* experience isn’t true and someone elses is. If there’s something we’re I’m wrong, I’m more than happy to admit it (as I did immediately when I became aware I was wrong with the sideline issue Tex raised about Farenheit/Celsius conversion).
You have not pointed out a *single* thing I’ve pointed out that is “junk”. More accusations with zero evidence to support it. As I said before – put up or shut up.
As for your last “countless” testimonies – guess what, they’re not countless. I and another poster on QBlog spent some time “counting” a couple of years of these “testimonies” on Amquix. A third were pro-Amway, a third were anti-Amway, with actual experience, a third were folk with no experience or almost no experience simply saying “glad I found the site” and then quitting – without even having had a bad experience! You then go make this absolutely RIDICULOUS claim about people having had their lives ruined by the people who push “the system”. This ubiquitious “system” doesn’t exist. You have zero experience with Crador. You have zero experience with Muller-Meerkatz. You have zero experience with Heckel. You have zero experience with Schwartz. You probably have zero experience with Network 21. You have zero experience with >99.9% of the Amway world, yet you sit here making absolutist judgements about what everyone is doing. What’s “the system” – learn how to do it, work hard. Hard work and education – that’s it, that’s the common “system” you talk about. I know people that have been “ruined” following that system in the traditional business world, but you think the fact “the systems” all teach the same thing “learn and work hard” that this means they all operate the same way, they all rip people off, they all pressure people, they all do under the table payments etc etc etc
Yet you have HOW MUCH experience with 99.9999% of Amway?
NONE
Comment by Anonymous — April 28, 2008 @ 7:23 PM
Are you anonymous or ibofightback?
Having read more exchanges between “insider” and JoeCool, I have concluded that Joecool just gets under ibofightback’s skin. JoeCool and ibofightback have differing views and rarely ever agree on amway related issues.
Now whether or not Joecool frequented brothels or not is irrelevant to the amway and quixtar issues. ibofightback himself said he’s got a “partner” and not a wife. So is he sleeping around and making babies with different women, thus making him an illegitimate parent? I don’t know and I don’t care.
Some of what JoeCool says is right on the money and some is “off”. Likewise, some of what ibofightback says is right and some is also “off”
What I gather from all this is that “MOST” people would be better off not getting involved in amway or quixtar. These people are simply not motivated or suitbale to run an MLM business. Yet IBO’s recruit “unsuitable” people. Also, my understanding is that many people who are motivated who register often get into financial difficulty as the teaching system slowly drains their rescources unless they eventually build a sizable downline. However, building a sizable and sustainable downline is nearly impossible. Amway and quixtar has a shady reputation at best. Thus, a reasonable person should conclude that where most will not benefit by participating, even on a dedicated basis, then most should avoid the opportunity. However, an MLM structure, one cannot succeed without downline. Quite a dilemma.
Ibofightback, I have concluded that you have an unheathy obsession with JoeCool. For some reason, I sense you have an unheathy disdain for the man, and I can see it in your posts. Even in messages where other were civil, you seem to have lost your temper when JoeCool was in the discussion.
My guess is that you are highly competitive and HATE losing. Are you the type that would beat your kid in marbles because you hate to lose? I see you and JoeCool as near equals in the amway quixtar debate with you as a knowledgeable supporter and JoeCool as a fairly knowledgeable critic.
Maybe JoeCool did or is doing unethical things when he’s not debating quixtar and amway, but heck, I like occasionally going to strip clubs abd stuff too. Only difference is that I didn’t post my name “Outsider” on the internet.
Comment by Outsider — April 28, 2008 @ 10:37 PM
yeah, that was me, and yeah JC gets under my skin and he undoubtedly knows it. He deliberately repeats things he knows are false to stir me up and he does it again and again. He’s dishonest to the extreme. It’s one reason why I now ignore him. If I recall correctly you brought him into the conversation with the whole “brothel” things, not me. As for my “partner”, no I’m not married to her, but I don’t cheat on her either. Again you seem to have somewhat interesting ways of moral judgements. You here have equated the occasional visit to a strip club with the kind of stuff JoeCool was doing, by his own words – you clearly haven’t read the stuff, I suggest you either do so and understand what you’re talking about, or better drop the topic at all at stop with BS talking points you’ve been fed.
Regarding whether he is a “knowledgeable” critic or not, it’s hard to tell. He so often repeats stuff that is not true, and which he has been shown numerous times is not true, that he’s either an idiot or deliberately dishonest. Since he’s admitted himself to numerous acts of dishonesty, and in the brothel case either to lying about it or a story teller on the internet (probably both), I’m tending towards dishonest. He’s an attention seeker and Q* gives him his extending 15 mins of internet fame, as long as he has acolytes like you who lap up his stories unquestionably.
Either way his knowledge is debatable.
As for the criticism of “MLMers” as recruiting unsuitable people, are you saying it’s our job to judge what’s right for other people, despite knowing from past experience that you simply can’t determine who will succeed and who won’t? That they shouldn’t be given the opportunity to get information and decide for themselves? That they shouldn’t have the right to give it a try, and if they think it’s not for them, get all their money back?
We have different world views.
Comment by ibofightback — April 29, 2008 @ 12:40 AM
IBOfightback, I did a lot of reading on quixtar blog, your blog and JoeCool’s blog and others.
You and JoeCool are like sparring partners.
No, I don’t think JoeCool is an authority, nor do I condone his behavior if he in fact did visit brothels. I don’t really care to go and read his posts as I said, to me it’s irrelevent to amway quixtar. I only posted the thing about your technology company hosting brothels because I find it somewhat hypocritical of you. Fankly if I were in your shoes, I would accept their business also, but where it gets debatable is when you think it’s so bad that someone frequents the brothel. Afterall, you are indirectly helping to promote them. That’s all I got to say about this subject and I consider it now closed.
Sure, people have a right to decide whether to try MLM or not, but there is PLENTY of evidence that many people get tricked into joining amway quixtar and have been lied to by various Amway quixtar recruiters. Amway quixtar is just about the only MLM where this type of deception is so common. I don’t hear these stories about Avon, etc.,
I believe amway quixtar is distinctive in deception because there is emphasis on recruiting. Although amway/quixtar remains legal because they don’t pay for recruiting,
there is still emphasis on recruiting because that is the virtually only way to reach the higher levels in the business and it’s why the business, IMO is a bad idea.
You can disagree, but it is still a reaity here in the USA. Your promoting what I believe is a scam. Do you get compensated to promote amway or quixtar?
Comment by Outsider — April 29, 2008 @ 10:34 PM
” You here have equated the occasional visit to a strip club with the kind of stuff JoeCool was doing, by his own words – you clearly haven’t read the stuff, I suggest you either do so and understand what you’re talking about, or better drop the topic at all at stop with BS talking points you’ve been fed.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IBOfightback, in my “world”, one wrong is just as bad as another. Therefore, even if JoeCool did something stupid like going to a brothel, that’s no better or worse than someone who hits their kids, disrespects their parents, or have sex without marriage. That’s my point. As I said, I don’t condone what JoeCool may have done, but neither do I condemn him. I am not perfect and have done some stupid things in my life. Everyone does. Everyone also deserves a second shot. I believe it was clear that JoeCool had stopped visiting that website/brothel before he was exposed, thus indicating to me that he did it of his own accord. Does anyone know who JoeCool really is? I know his name but not much else about him.
BTW, I have been extensively reading up on Quixtar and Amway and I don’t understand why a person who achieves the diamond level would ever quit or do something to get terminated by the company. Do you care to explain this?
**Lastly – JoeCool can only get under your skin if you let him.
Comment by Outsider — April 30, 2008 @ 4:57 AM
Wow, hitting kids and using women in illegal brothels for sex is no worse than sex outside marriage. We really do have different world views. And no, he hadn’t stopped visiting the site. He lied about that. Which is my main point (not his brothel visits) – he is a liar and this episode made it very clear he is a liar. He repeatedly and very clearly and confirmably lied on his website about this issue. He lies about many things with regards to Amway. He lies about many things with regards to me. I’ve had emails from people who know him, so I’ve more than just his name.
As for your on-topic questions/comments -
Sure, people have a right to decide whether to try MLM or not, but there is PLENTY of evidence that many people get tricked into joining amway quixtar and have been lied to by various Amway quixtar recruiters. Amway quixtar is just about the only MLM where this type of deception is so common. I don’t hear these stories about Avon, etc.,
Avon is recent to the MLM game, and there are indeed “horror stories” about Avon. As for “getting tricked into joining” I don’t see how that is even possible, given you have to sign a contract. Even so, Amway is at least 4 times the size of the nearest competitor and been around more than 20 years longer than they have – and there’s plenty of “horror” stories about them on the ‘net too. You don’t appear to have looked very hard. And let’s put that “many” in perspective. let’s imagine that 1% of 1% of 1% of IBOs in any given year have some “horror story” they tell on the internet. That should have give you 100 different “horror stories just since 1998. You won’t find that many. More people went Diamond in that time just in the US alone then reported some “horror story”.
I believe amway quixtar is distinctive in deception because there is emphasis on recruiting
“Recruiting” is simply a way to develop customers and volume. Most people who join are recruited as customers. You may not believe it, but the statistics and data are extremely clear on that. There’s nothing deceptive about developing customer volume. Indeed, some IBOs say they feel deceptive selling products at full price when they know for a small fee the person can register and get them 20-30% cheaper.
Do you really feel it would be a more “honest” business if we hid that alternative?
Do you get compensated to promote amway or quixtar?
Any more than any other IBO does through generating sales volume through their network? No. (with the exception of the recent Prague blogging panel). I’ve said this often enough I’m really getting sick of answering it. Do you get paid by P&G or Unilever to denigrate Amway on the internet? Does JoeCool?
BTW, I have been extensively reading up on Quixtar and Amway and I don’t understand why a person who achieves the diamond level would ever quit or do something to get terminated by the company. Do you care to explain this?
Well, I don’t think it’s normal for anyone to deliberately go out of their way to get terminated, but apart from that, why do you think this business would be any different to any other business? It has it’s ups and downs, people think perhaps there’s a better opportunity elsewhere, or they have some disagreement or something else happens. People buy and sell and move on to other businesses all the time in the non-Amway world. If you thought there was a better option for you elsewhere, why would you stay with Amway?
Comment by ibofightback — May 1, 2008 @ 12:17 AM
“Wow, hitting kids and using women in illegal brothels for sex is no worse than sex outside marriage. We really do have different world views. ”
In my “different” world view, “a sin is a sin”. One is not better or worse than another.
“And no, he hadn’t stopped visiting the site. He lied about that. Which is my main point (not his brothel visits) – he is a liar and this episode made it very clear he is a liar. He repeatedly and very clearly and confirmably lied on his website about this issue. He lies about many things with regards to Amway. He lies about many things with regards to me. ‘
So Steve/Joe is still visiting and posting on that website? When did he last post there? He said on his blog or someplace that he has not posted there in a while. That certainly can be confirmed?
“I’ve had emails from people who know him, so I’ve more than just his name.”
So who is he? I know his name, is it confirmed? Is there more?
““Recruiting” is simply a way to develop customers and volume. Most people who join are recruited as customers. You may not believe it, but the statistics and data are extremely clear on that. ”
I have seen some major groups who teach their IBO’s not to sell stuff, just buy for themselves. Isn’t that a violation of company rules?
Any more than any other IBO does through generating sales volume through their network? No. (with the exception of the recent Prague blogging panel). I’ve said this often enough I’m really getting sick of answering it. Do you get paid by P&G or Unilever to denigrate Amway on the internet? Does JoeCool?
My main beef isn’t so much with Amway, but the IBO’s who trick people into meetings, teach IBO’s not to sell merchandise, and those who sell false hopes to people who may be vulnerable to these suggestions.
” People buy and sell and move on to other businesses all the time in the non-Amway world. If you thought there was a better option for you elsewhere, why would you stay with Amway?”
But these diamonds are quitting. If there was such a thing as “residual” and “continuing” income, why would they resign? Wouldn’t they
just walk away and let the checks keep rolling in?
Comment by Outsider — May 1, 2008 @ 1:04 AM
Yes, we do have different world views. I don’t consider murder (a sin in all faiths I believe) and eating too much food (the sin of gluttony) to be the same. Let’s just leave that discussion to the side.
As for JC, he claimed he hadn’t posted to the site in more than a year, I found posts of his only a few weeks before he made that statement. I haven’t tried to see if he’s still posting or posted after that. As for his names and other details, despite the lies of the critics claiming I’ve “outed” all of these people, I’ve never named any critics, I don’t intend to start now. His name, job etc etc are not relevant. The fact he lies on his quixtar blog is relevant, which is what started the whole “brothel” thing. He made a post about it and claimed IBOs were threatening him. To the best of my knowledge no pro-Amway person had raised the issue until I raised it as a topic, and lied about it.
I have seen some major groups who teach their IBO’s not to sell stuff, just buy for themselves. Isn’t that a violation of company rules?
yup. It’s not illegal though, which folk often claim and which I challenge.
My main beef isn’t so much with Amway, but the IBO’s who trick people into meetings, teach IBO’s not to sell merchandise, and those who sell false hopes to people who may be vulnerable to these suggestions.
I have a beef with them as well, they give the business and industry a bad name. I also have a beef with critics who claim or assume that the entire, or even majority, of Amway operates this way. I particular have a beef with folk who claim I operate that way.
But these diamonds are quitting. If there was such a thing as “residual” and “continuing” income, why would they resign? Wouldn’t they just walk away and let the checks keep rolling in?
Again, lots of reasons. Back in the early 80s a Diamond thought the business had peaked and would start shrinking. So he sold his business to get the cash before he thought it would start to shrink. He was wrong of course, one of his legs ended up with Double Crown Ambassador Kauro Nakajima of Japan. Another has now Founders Crown Ambassdor 45FAA Jim & Nancy Dornan. If you think the business is going to shrink, clearly you’d be better off selling.
Team Diamonds clearly think the name change to Amway will be a disaster, they wanted to go do something else as quickly as possible.
Others of course walk away because there businesses aren’t generating residual income. There’s no guarantees that just because you go Diamond it will keep bringing in the dollars. It’s a lot more sophisticated than that and needs proper structure to (statistically speaking) be likely to “live on” without your input. There are plenty of folk with residual incomes. There’s dead people whose estates are getting the money (Neil Maaskant’s for example)
Comment by ibofightback — May 1, 2008 @ 8:31 PM
“The fact he lies on his quixtar blog is relevant”
I did not see anything on his blog that was a blatant lie. The issue of the brothel thing is the only area of debate, but even that does not appear to be a slam dunk. The rest of the articles look like opinions and stories. Am I wrong?
” yup. It’s not illegal though, which folk often claim and which I challenge.”
Maybe not illegal, but it is not sound business practice, in my opinion.
“I have a beef with them as well, they give the business and industry a bad name. I also have a beef with critics who claim or assume that the entire, or even majority, of Amway operates this way. I particular have a beef with folk who claim I operate that way.”
I know that “all” people associated with amway and quixtar don’t do this, but there are enough of them out there to ruin the name of the company. And a noobie wouldn’t really know whose ethical and whose not. And that is where the problem is. To my knowledge, the corp. hasn’t stomped on the bad groups.
“Others of course walk away because there businesses aren’t generating residual income.”
There’s one more issue I have because there are quite a few IBOs out there who make it sound as if they will become diamond and bask in wealth the rest of their lives.
IBOfightback, you’re ok, but I disagree with you on several key issues. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Comment by Outsider — May 1, 2008 @ 10:38 PM
I did not see anything on his blog that was a blatant lie.
Believe me, if you actually went and read what he’d written on the WSG site (which I don’t recommend), then it’s definitely a slam dunk. He claimed the Facebook profile wasn’t his, but later admitted it was. He claimed he hadn’t posted in more than a year, then was caught having posted only a few weeks before. With regards Amway, he regularly posts lies about things I’ve said, and he also often misleads by deliberate ommission, and even states things in a factual manner when he’s previously been shown they are untrue. Another example is mentioned in my Amway/Quixtar Myths, Psycho-facts and the Internet Echo Chamber article.
Maybe not illegal, but it is not sound business practice, in my opinion.
Nor in mine.
To my knowledge, the corp. hasn’t stomped on the bad groups.
Threatening to withhold all the bonuses for “big pins” for “misbehaviour” isn’t stomping on them? That’s what linking QBI to Quixtar Accreditation does. And there has been things done in the past. In the early 80s Amway tried stomping and broke their own leg. Now Amway is bigger and stronger and the “problems” are smaller and less influencing.
There’s one more issue I have because there are quite a few IBOs out there who make it sound as if they will become diamond and bask in wealth the rest of their lives.
Founders Executive Diamond, probably. Diamond, unlikely.
Comment by ibofightback — May 2, 2008 @ 3:11 AM
“Believe me, if you actually went and read what he’d written on the WSG site (which I don’t recommend), then it’s definitely a slam dunk. ”
But that’s not his blog. I didn’t see anything blatantly wrong on his blog.
He may have a shady side to him, which I do not condone, but his blog looks ok, although the guy is obviously obsessed with being anti – quixtar.
“Founders Executive Diamond, probably. Diamond, unlikely.”
A diamond makes around $150K. What do these higher levels earn if teh structure is right?
Comment by Outsider — May 2, 2008 @ 5:31 AM
But that’s not his blog. I didn’t see anything blatantly wrong on his blog.
With regards this topic, what was wrong on his blog was (a) he lied about it, repeatedly and (b) he tried to attack IBOs using these lies. He’s also extremely misleading for those who don’t understand the business. For example, his current post states “If you have been in the business and following the system for a year, or nearly a year and you are not platinum or close to platinum, chances are YOU WILL NEVER REACH THE PLATINUM LEVEL OR HIGHER”
What he well knows is that “following the system” requires an awful lot of committment and almost nobody does it consistently. Those that do, do indeed reach Platinum and higher. The problem is that outside observers (eg family) often have a completely twisted view of what people are doing. We’ve had months where we’ve put in maybe 8 hrs total into the business and my fiancee’s parents have commented we’re working so hard! They haven’t got a clue what work we are or are not doing, but think they do. So the average IBOs caring family and friends will read JoeCool’s post and leap on anyone who has been in the business a year and pressure them to quit. By far the majority of Platinums I know took a lot longer than a year after joining before they went platinum. In those intervening years they usually still went to seminars, which the outside world seems to interpret as meaning they were following the system, but they weren’t doing all the things necessary. They knew it and took personal responsibility and then later moved on and started putting in the committment.
His last post was comparing the Casino (games of chance) with Amway (rewards work and results). It’s a completely bogus comparison and he knows it. There is nothing you can do in roulette to effect your likelihood of success. Everything you do in Amway is up to you and can effect your likelihood of success. To compare it to a game of chance is outright dishonest.
A diamond makes around $150K. What do these higher levels earn if the structure is right?
structure isn’t just about income, it’s also, and perhaps more important, about stability
A few years ago it was reported the average Founders Executive Diamond and above in the US makes about $1.4million/yr.
Comment by ibofightback — May 2, 2008 @ 3:07 PM
IBOFightback,
Thanks for the information. So your experience is that most who truly dedicate themselves usually make it to higher levels? Why do you think so many people sign up and then don’t dedicate themselves if the reward is truly an easy lifestyle?
BTW, I read JoeCool’s article and he said Amway is not a game of chance. Here’s the excerpt from his blog:
“Although the amway/quixtar business is not a game of chance, you can compare it to the experience of many IBOs who participated in an AQMO system. ”
Based on my observations, that assessment seems reasonable if you look at those who sign up and later quit.
“Everything you do in Amway is up to you and can effect your likelihood of success. To compare it to a game of chance is outright dishonest.”
While this is true, what an IBO cannot control is whether others will join or not. I believe that Amway’s reputation here in the US is soiled because of what some crazy previous IBO’s have done. If you read my story, you’ll know what I mean.
Anyway, overall, maybe IBO’s should screen prospects and not sign up people who are not serious because then they will be less likely to quit or sign up and do nothing. That will help repair the name reputation and improve overall retention.
What do you think?
Comment by Outsider — May 2, 2008 @ 10:47 PM
While this is true, what an IBO cannot control is whether others will join or not. I believe that Amway’s reputation here in the US is soiled because of what some crazy previous IBO’s have done. If you read my story, you’ll know what I mean.
I don’t need to read your story to know that
Had ‘em in my own group! 
Anyway, overall, maybe IBO’s should screen prospects and not sign up people who are not serious because then they will be less likely to quit or sign up and do nothing. That will help repair the name reputation and improve overall retention.
What do you think?
I both agree and disagree. The problem is there are wwaaaaayyyy too many stories of people like that who after months or even years suddenly *did* take it seriously.
What I’d prefer is that more IBO’s communicate better with the prospects, and do what one of mine just did recently, went to someone she sponsored a couple of months back who was doing nothing, sat down with her, offered her all her money back. She declined, said she still wants to do it, just not yet, and remains registered but has started buying and using more of the products (and is finding she loves them).
I just last night listened to a CD of an old friend of mine (who happens to be my upline in another country). He spoke about someone in his downline who had a bad experience with their sponsor. My friend visited saw them and bought back everything this person had bought. CD’s, books, Amway products, everything. They will not be left with the impression they would have had if he hadn’t done that.
I’ve done several posts on this topic on my site. The majority of people we show the business to are not interested. The majority of people who join the business will end up not doing much with it. Those two together absolutely dwarf the numbers of people who stay in and build a business. They define our public reputation. It’s our job as IBOs, as well as the BSM companies and Amway, to ensure all the people not interested and all the people who “quit” have as positive an experience as possible.
I think that’s a better approach than excluding folk who want to join just because [i]we[/i] think they won’t do anything with it.
Comment by ibofightback — May 3, 2008 @ 11:52 PM
This would be just my observation on the blogs and such, but in the US, quixtar and amway have such a bad name, it’s hard to find people
open minded enough to show the plan to. I guess over the years, so many people have heard of or know someone who had a less than satisfactory experience with crazy IBO’s.
You’re experience is probably different, but you are from another country right?
Comment by Outsider — May 5, 2008 @ 10:44 PM